The Game Plan

by terribad Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:15 pm

This is going to be the space for all major aspects of the project: development steps, game design, etc. It is going to allow us to all get on the same page, and move the project forward as a team versus multiple independent contributors. I believe it is the beginning of the documentation BMF was suggesting. I'm planning on updating this list constantly with new topics, and looking for ALL team members' input on all subjects.

Items to Consider v1

• Effective team communication
o The Forum
 CON: Looks terrible
 CON: Is slow for exchanging thoughts
 PRO: Everyone can see every discussion anytime
o The Google Doc chat
 PRO: effective entry area for new team/community members
 PRO: quick exchange of thoughts, debate on ideas
 CON: not everyone is there, or can see what is discussed

• Basic Systems
o How is the engine?
o Control scheme
o Visuals
o Sprites- Mario

• What did PM1 and TTYD do right? What did they do wrong? (This is already being worked on in BMF's thread here)
o What did SPM and SS do right/wrong?

• What direction should this game take?
o Main Storyline
 After events of TTYD
 New McGuffin
 New Villain
 Locations
 Characters
gumbo: chapters>acts>locations to go along with them and> the characters inside the chapters(introductory characters, npc's, their roles)
o Treating as a play (using “Acts” instead of “Chapters”)
 Traditional 8?
 Emphasizing the stage
o Mario’s movement abilities in the overworld
 Turning flat (1D), rolling into a ball, airplane/boat abilities

• Area 0 - This is Tragedian's thread here
o Opening Cinematic
o Tutorials
o Story Exposition

• Three “modes” of the game
o Cinematic Mode- cutscenes and story progression, control is taken away from the player in this mode
o Exploration Mode- player moves around in the game environments, interacting with NPCs, exploring dungeons, solving puzzles; this is the majority of the gameplay
o Combat Mode- battle sequences

• Quick Change from the start

• Partners
o Their own badges, BP
o How many new, how many do we bring back/improve
o Level up separately, traditional Shine Sprite system, or learn new moves from side quests

• Game Over
o When Mario dies in battle versus both Mario + partner falling
o Certain story events

by terribad Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:16 pm

This will be a changelog of sorts:
V1 posted 2015-02-21 14:15:42

by Guest Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:38 pm

Effective Team Communication: I think both are needed. The forum allows for communication that everyone can see, and the docs (there could be more than one in the future) allows us to write what we have down in one place.
How is the engine?: I wouldn't know. It looks like Gumbo created a new thread yesterday called "Development of the Engine", but only they can post there? I don't know why Gumbo instantiated that last rule...
Control Scheme: A very good question. Included in this: will the game expect the user to use a keyboard/xbox controller or will it allow the user to use either?
Visuals: I think that it would probably look like PM2.
Main Storyline: I actually don't really care how it looks like, so long as it's good and light-hearted. I can offer proofreading though.
Treating as a Play: We should definitely call them acts instead of chapters. I think that it would be cool to do something new with the stage and audience, like have them be visibly different from location to location (ex. audience is situated around dinner tables), although that would get cumbersome to program.
Partners: Side quests would be cool, although with even six partners that could be 12 side quests (one for each new move). Sounds like a lot to code and write. Leveling up / Shine sprites are easy to add to the game in comparison, but aren't nearly as fun. There could be a mix of the three ideas. That would allow for each partner to have one side quest that unlocks something cool for them.
Game Over: I prefer Mario OR any partner falling. Story related game overs are also cool.

by **Gumbo** Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:20 pm

blackmagicfine wrote:

Effective Team Communication: I think both are needed. The forum allows for communication that everyone can see, and the docs (there could be more than one in the future) allows us to write what we have down in one place.
How is the engine?: I wouldn't know. It looks like Gumbo created a new thread yesterday called "Development of the Engine", but only they can post there? I don't know why Gumbo instantiated that last rule...
Control Scheme: A very good question. Included in this: will the game expect the user to use a keyboard/xbox controller or will it allow the user to use either?
Visuals: I think that it would probably look like PM2.
Main Storyline: I actually don't really care how it looks like, so long as it's good and light-hearted. I can offer proofreading though.
Treating as a Play: We should definitely call them acts instead of chapters. I think that it would be cool to do something new with the stage and audience, like have them be visibly different from location to location (ex. audience is situated around dinner tables), although that would get cumbersome to program.
Partners: Side quests would be cool, although with even six partners that could be 12 side quests (one for each new move). Sounds like a lot to code and write. Leveling up / Shine sprites are easy to add to the game in comparison, but aren't nearly as fun. There could be a mix of the three ideas. That would allow for each partner to have one side quest that unlocks something cool for them.
Game Over: I prefer Mario OR any partner falling. Story related game overs are also cool.

The problem with communication at the moment seems to be... Well... Lack of it. We have the google doc chat AND I added a chatango box to the top of the forum and nobody but me has used either in the last 12 hours.

Only I can post there because it's more of a 'dev blog' than anything else. The engine is going well, I haven't posted there yet because I'm lazy.

I was actually thinking about this earlier today. I happen to thank god have both a gamecube controller adapter for PC, and an xbox controller, so I will put in options for those two as well as keyboard input. I think it would be really cool to be able to use a gamecube controller with this game.

And yeah, it's definitely going to mostly resemble PM2.

As far as the storyline goes, Trag has come up with somewhat of a story almost, I think he should make a topic in the writers lounge about it though, and then the other writers can add on, but as far as I'm concerned, his beginning to the story is official, and I would much prefer if people ADDED ON to it instead of arguing about what it should actually be. We need to get serious here, so far we don't really have much of anything for the story.

I'd prefer if we remained with 'chapters', but we can have something like 'Chapter 1- Act 1' and stuff like that.

As far as anything being 'too cumbersome' to program, don't worry about it. I'm not the one who is going to be taking care of specific battle scenarios and events. The plan is, the level editor will be made in such a way that I can give the level designers this level editing program, and they can right click on the NPC's / enemies and edit their battle settings, such as the background of the stage, the audience members, and I suppose I could add in some preset variances like sitting at a table or something like that. It will default to whatever fits the location, but like I said, if the story calls for it, the level editors will be able to modify most battle settings. This can also allow for easier creation of bosses, you could for example make an ordinary goomba into a boss by modifying its battle settings, giving it higher defence and attack, a higher HP, making it so mario can't flee from the battle, things like that. The plan is that I will ONLY have to do 'programming', because if I had to program every single battle in the game specifically, I'd go mad, and never finish anything.

Side quests are definitely going to be a thing, I'd just like to focus on the main storyline right now. Maybe they'll be free DLC, maybe not, but I think the plan right now is just to even get started on the game. I'm not one to say 'let's not think that far ahead yet', though, so as far as I'm concerned, we will release the game, and if the sidequests are finished, we release them with the game, if not, we release them as free optional DLC.

by Guest Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:36 pm

Oh, I honestly didn't even notice the Chatango box until you mentioned it. Heh, whoops. :/

Dev blog? People post replies to dev blogs all the time. The main reason that I bring this up is because this game is a team effort. It benefits from things like Pair Programming and Linus's Law.

I agree about the gamecube controller.

As for the "too cumbersome to program" bit, I should have said that it could be "too cumbersome to program, write, and draw". For example, normally you only have one stage, but adding in a stage for each location means that you have to come up with, write code for, and draw at least seven more stages. As you mentioned, there are programming tactics that help for the coding side, but those tactics only go so far. This isn't to say that the multiple stages idea is bad, I'm just clearing up what I said.

I don't think free optional DLC really works for these sidequests. It was mentioned that the sidequests are a means to level up partners. However, if there are few or no sidequests upon release, then the partners would be relatively weak by the end of the game. Similarly, players could have the same reaction to this that they did to Bonetail: "What's the point to getting a cool skill when you've already beaten the game?"

by **Gumbo** Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:41 pm

blackmagicfine wrote:Oh, I honestly didn't even notice the Chatango box until you mentioned it. Heh, whoops. :/

Dev blog? People post replies to dev blogs all the time. The main reason that I bring this up is because this game is a team effort. It benefits from things like Pair Programming and Linus's Law.

I agree about the gamecube controller.

As for the "too cumbersome to program" bit, I should have said that it could be "too cumbersome to program, write, and draw". For example, normally you only have one stage, but adding in a stage for each location means that you have to come up with, write code for, and draw at least seven more stages. As you mentioned, there are programming tactics that help for the coding side, but those tactics only go so far. This isn't to say that the multiple stages idea is bad, I'm just clearing up what I said.

I don't think free optional DLC really works for these sidequests. It was mentioned that the sidequests are a means to level up partners. However, if there are few or no sidequests upon release, then the partners would be relatively weak by the end of the game. Similarly, players could have the same reaction to this that they did to Bonetail: "What's the point to getting a cool skill when you've already beaten the game?"

Well I'm currently the only one who knows any GML on the team anyways, so really all I would be doing is opening it up for feedback.

Yeah, but you could say that about the whole game, really. I mean, I'm not talking about like 8352345 different variants for battle design, I'm talking maybe 5-10, which isn't too much when you consider it's an aspect of the game and not just something for shits and giggles.

Well, in TTYD, there really were no sidequests past the pit of 100 trials that you could use the 'return postage' badge for. I plan on having the partners plenty strong by end main game, but also if you do one sidequest you can get stronger for the rest of the sidequests and so on, so there is a point to them.

by Guest Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:59 pm

Learning new languages isn't usually hard. If you want to see hard try Forth, Haskell or assembly. I'm taking a look at GML now and it looks really similar to languages that I already know. I have plenty of programming experience. If you want any help coding or feedback, just say so...

You got me there.

The initial question was "Level up separately, traditional Shine Sprite system, or learn new moves from side quests". In my mind, this implied that partners only get strong through sidequests. When you say "I plan on having the partners plenty strong by end main game", you are implying that there is a way for partners to get strong besides sidequests (which is what I originally suggested). Is this true?

by **Gumbo** Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:05 pm

blackmagicfine wrote:Learning new languages isn't usually hard. If you want to see hard try Forth, Haskell or assembly. I'm taking a look at GML now and it looks really similar to languages that I already know. I have plenty of programming experience. If you want any help coding or feedback, just say so...

You got me there.

The initial question was "Level up separately, traditional Shine Sprite system, or learn new moves from side quests". In my mind, this implied that partners only get strong through sidequests. When you say "I plan on having the partners plenty strong by end main game", you are implying that there is a way for partners to get strong besides sidequests (which is what I originally suggested). Is this true?

Alright, I'll open it up for everyone then.

Why would partners only get strong through sidequests though? Maybe I'm missing something but I dissaprove strongly of that idea. They should level up through the main quest, and have side quests in which they can get new moves to use in other sidequests, or with the main game through sidequests you can do alongside the main storyline. The only thing I don't want here is a skyrim type deal where the sidequests heavily outweigh the main storyline in some way, so the player does all the sidequests and then has no fun playing the main quest because they are overpowered. It would be the first time a paper mario game saw real actual sidequests, and we would have to make sure we did it the right way.

by Guest Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:12 pm

I don't know, that's just what I thought Jones meant when he put up the bullet list. So when you say that they level up through the main quest, is that through leveling up like Mario, or leveling up through shine sprites? As for the sidequests, one thing that will need to be considered at some point is how many sidequests there are per partner.

by **Gumbo** Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:13 pm

blackmagicfine wrote:I don't know, that's just what I thought Jones meant when he put up the bullet list. So when you say that they level up through the main quest, is that through leveling up like Mario, or leveling up through shine sprites? As for the sidequests, one thing that will need to be considered at some point is how many sidequests there are per partner.

How would leveling up through shine sprites work? I don't... Think that's a great idea.

I don't think we should make 'sidequests per partner', just sidequests. No partner specific sidequests. Just sidequests that reward you with partner specific upgrades.

by Guest Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:19 pm

In PM2 partners leveled up through shine sprites. Each shine sprite increased their HP and gave them one extra attack.

By making sidequests reward you with partner specific upgrades they become partner specific sidequests, because they specifically boost the abilities of a singular partner. The only way for them to not be partner-specific is to make them boost the abilities of multiple partners.

by **Gumbo** Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:22 pm

blackmagicfine wrote:In PM2 partners leveled up through shine sprites. Each shine sprite increased their HP and gave them one extra attack.

By making sidequests reward you with partner specific upgrades they become partner specific sidequests, because they specifically boost the abilities of a singular partner. The only way for them to not be partner-specific is to make them boost the abilities of multiple partners.

Shine... Sprites... Why don't i remember any of this... OH OKAY. NOW I REMEMBER. YEP. That would be on the side, like it is in ttyd.

The sidequests wouldn't become partner specific, as the sidequest /=/ the reward. You could use all your partners during the sidequest, but the reward from the sidequest would go to a specific partner.

by Guest Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:23 pm

I know, hence why I call them partner-specific sidequests. Because the sidequest benefits a single partner.

by **Gumbo** Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:24 pm

blackmagicfine wrote:I know, hence why I call them partner-specific sidequests. Because the sidequest benefits a single partner.

Those wouldn't be partner specific sidequests though. You're interpreting the reward AS the sidequest, when it's not.

by Guest Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:28 pm

Semantics! What I'm trying to get at is that you need an equal number of sidequests for every partner in order to be fair.
For example, if there's six partners, you can have either 6 or 12 sidequests. Having 7 means that one partner gets one more benefit than the others.

At a certain point, the number of sidequests is too damn high.

by **Gumbo** Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:29 pm

blackmagicfine wrote:Semantics! What I'm trying to get at is that you need an equal number of sidequests for every partner in order to be fair.
For example, if there's six partners, you can have either 6 or 12 sidequests. Having 7 means that one partner gets one more benefit than the others.

At a certain point, the number of sidequests is too damn high.

Nah, you could have 6 more-major sidequests, and one more that was less major and just gave mario a badge or rare item. Not every sidequest has to reward a partner.

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